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Attention: Calling P85D owners world-wide

Attention Tesla model S P85D owners world-wide:

Dear fellow P85D owner,

As you might have observed from different forums around the world, the Tesla Model S - P85D doesn’t currently perform as stated and advertised by Tesla Motors. For one the acceleration time is about 1/2 a second slower than advertised, secondly the stated 691 HP is nowhere near what different dyno tests have been able to verify. In addition the data from the vehicle itself shows a far too low power consumption to be able to support a 691HP (or 515 kW) performance claim.

With your help we will now start to collect performance data from as many P85D owners as possible world-wide, in order to be able to investigate if this is a problem that goes beyond the vehicles belonging to theP85D owners in Denmark who originally started this case (14 persons). We firmly believe it is a world-wide issue but we want to know for certain and therefore we now open up a more global discussion and data collection.

We have been in contact with Tesla Motors for several months on this issue in order to open up the dialog with the company; however Tesla Motors has so far refused to reply to our formal complaint letters #1 and # 2.

For more information, please refer to:

teslaforum.dk/p85d/

If you would like to be a part of the world-wide data collection and co-signer of a resulting common complaint letter #3 to Tesla Motors, please sign up on the site with your VIN number, name and e-mail address.

We would like to state here that we are all satisfied with our incredible vehicles in almost every aspect and we are full of admiration for Tesla Motors. We regard ourselves as true ambassadors for Tesla Motors and the Model S and enjoy the attention and discussion that we have with like-minded and „not so like-minded“ people that we meet along the way.

Nonetheless we are disappointed that Tesla Motors has clearly not been able to deliver to us what was (and still is) promised and marketed with regards to the Model S P85D.

Our goal is simply to receive what we have bought and paid for.

On behalf of the 14 Danish P85D users

Kind regards

Torben, Henrik and Ken.

Dieser Sachverhalt ist mir völlig neu. War das jemandem hier bekannt? Vor allem P85D Fahrern? Sprich kann das ein P85D Fahrer nachvollziehen?

Frag stilgar, ICSP85D, Checkcaptain oder Rudi L. Wir haben mehrere Threads dazu.

Edit: Kostproben:
PD Leistungsupdate Umfrage

700 PS – oder nicht?
P85D Leistung und Höchstgeschwindigkeit

Oh, danke Volker, ist mir durchgegangen

Es ist bekannt das der P85D im Vergleich zum 85D nur leicht besser Beschleunigungswerte liefert.

Ich bin mir aber sicher das Tesla an einem Software Update arbeitet, wie schon öfters bei Tesla, man braucht geduldet.

youtube.com/watch?v=IQ-erpdLq8w

Hookmaker,

there is a thread here in the forum, where a p85d owner, who earns his living working with high performance ICE cars, tried to max out his p85d and he was able to reach the claimed acceleration.

But there are many factors to take into account, especially tires, battery temperature and soc. If everything fits, than you get acceleration as advertised. At least on tzb-fd’s p85d.

Can’t verify myself, I drive the 85d.

Best Mathie

Mathie, thanks. I am pretty good at reading German and I have tried to read the whole thread, but can not find this claim. Can you direct me to the user and the actual post where this claim is?
Thank you.

It is directly in the post I linked above. Here is the German quote:

Best Marcus

Thanks a lot, i have already found it…:wink:

Interesting, however these data are form End of April, I would really love to see more like these or whatever data people have from their tests.

Unfortunately, tzb-fd’s P85D crashed shortly thereafter.

Therefore his exploration of the car was interrupted. But I’m looking forward to hearing further details an the Mondel S from him. He Has been in the performance car business for a while, so I assume, he knows, what he ist talking about, when speaking about performance figures.

Best Mathie

IMHO it is very easy to proof that the P85D cannot have 691hp power at the wheel.
Simply do the math:

max. cell voltage (in real life always lower): 4.2V
96 cells are serially connected:
96 x 4.2V = 403.2V

The battery fuses are 1300A (650A front and 650A back connector). Elon also confirmed it in public.

Pmax = U * I = 403,2V * 1300A = 524160W = 524, 16kW = 702.9hp

This is the absolute maximum which can get out of the battery and is limited by the fuses. But not only the electric motors but some other things need electricity. The inverters and of course the motors have losses. And it is likely that the front motor is fed by the front connector and the rear motor by the rear connector, which makes the maximum performance even more unlikely.
Even if you only calculate 5% loss it is clear that you won’t have 691hp motor power.

I think the introduction of the Loudricious mode makes this even more obvious and while I’m a happy Tesla owner, I think this kind of marketing is wrong. I feel also a bit tricked that I should pay €5000 for something which should have been there in the first place already.

I am not sure, if Tesla was mentioning 691 Hp as the total wheel power.

I believe to remember, that Tesla was mentioning the power of the front and rear motor separately on the order page, as it is done today.

Does someone has a screenshot of the old order page to check that ?

Worum geht es hier eigentlich?

Es geht darum das der P85D nicht die versprochene Leitung hat. Zumindest nicht unter normalen Bedingungen im Alltag. Das Leistungsmaximum des P85D liegt nur bei 95-100% geladenem Akku und gleichzeitig muss der Akku vorgewärmt sein (irgendetwas um 45 Grad). Im Prinzip hat man diese Bedingungen nur ganz kurz nach dem Besuch beim Supercharger. Im Alltag aber nie.

Ich habe mich auch gewundert warum die Nadel immer deutlich unterhalb der 480 Nm bei meinen Tests war/ist. Die 691 HP sind so technisch nicht möglich. Ganz korrekt finde ich das auch nicht. Wenn ich die versprochene Leistung im Alltag nicht abrufen kann, sollte man es auch nicht so bewerben. Aber da haben die Amis ein anderes Verständnis für die solche Dinge. Das sieht man ja auch schon auf der HP der Amis wo dann zuerst der Verkaufspreis des Model S inkl. Steuerersparnis und Benzinerspanis genannt wird. Eine solche Art der Darstellung finde ich etwas seltsam (riecht immer etwas nach „Verkaufsmodell“) und eigentlich hätte dies Tesla auch nicht nötig. Gott sein Dank ist es hier in Deutschland besser dargestellt.

Ich denke das die meisten auch den P85D gekauft hätte wenn er „nur“ mit offiziell 600 PS beworben wäre. Aber so sieht es eben blöd aus, wenn man beim täglichen Gebrauch nicht halten kann, womit man beim Kauf des Autos wirbt.

Gruß
Oliver

Did anybody from Tesla claim this? BHP is measured at the shaft of the engine, not at the wheel.

691hp imperial or metric or even electric?

Is 1300A the nominal or the actual tripping current?

So before claiming that tesla did advertise figures that are not correct, check what they actually did advertise, than check if you have the information necessary to verify or falsify theoretically.

Given the severe punitive damages in U.S. tort law, I’d assume that the guys and gals at Tesla covered their asses.

In the end, tzb-fd showed, that it is possible to reproduce the claimed acceleration values under real world conditions if you carefully observe certain parameters. I’d assume, that this is the case with other performance claims as well.

Best Mathie

First, my posting is not to say that it’s ok for any manufacturer to state something about his product it doesn’t do in the real world.

But, let me ask you: What are you trying to achieve?

  • Tesla should pay back some money, because you paid for more horsepower than you got
  • Tesla should retrofit the cars with the Ludicrous update for free because then you would get what you paid for
  • Tesla should do nothing, you just want to insist on your rights for the sake of clarity

Honestly, it cannot be that the available power isn’t just „enough“, right?

Tesla advertised it in a way that they did not answer the questions that you asked. So for sure they are probably safe from a legal point of view. Still they created the perception for many buyers to have a 700hp car, which they don’t.
Tesla should answer exactly those kind of questions then people wouldn’t have to guess themselves. From the information I have I can claim that it is very likely that they wouldn’t get to those numbers.

With my calculation they would not even be able to deliver it at the shaft. And I would assume metric hp, which is also the most favorable for conversion.
I also would assume nominal current, actual tripping current would be even worse. But I also would assume that one wouldn’t go beyond nominal for an electric part in normal operation.

So please proof me wrong.

Schau Dir mal die Leistungskurve eines beliebigen Verbrenners an, da liegt die Maximalleistung auch nur in einem sehr engen Drehzahlbereich an, der im alltäglichen Gebrauch kaum zu nutzen ist. Die Beschleunigungswerte sind nur mit fast leerem Tank ohne weitere Zuladung von einem erfahrenen Fahrer bei warmem Motor zu erreichen. Auch das sind nicht die alltäglichen Nutzungsbedingungen.

Das ist aber nicht nur bei Autos so. Wenn mich jemand so mit 14 gefragt hat, was ich auf 1000m laufe, habe ich auch 2:30 gesagt, obwohl ich das nur im Training oder bei Wettkämpfen gelaufen bin, nicht im Alltag. Gesprungen bin ich damals auch 5,irgendwas, aber ebenfalls nicht im Alltag.

Was soll also die ganze Aufregung?

Gruß Mathie

Ich finde die Diskussion dann ziemlich dämlich…

Can’t do that for the same reasons that you can’t prove your claims. We just don’t have the data.

You assume, that the fuses have an actual tripping current of 1300A and no latency. If that is the case, you are right.

All fuses I have seen so far have some latency and the actual tripping current is above the nominal value. Can I prove that this is true for the fuses used in the battery pack of the Model S? No, I can’t!

Therefore I think the discussion is pointless.

Best Mathie